Submission #2

Note:  This is a “submission” that was received after a long series of e-mail exchanges.

From: Mark at trio59 ….

I have a preponderance of evidence showing Lloyd was referring to the long piece of the pole that hit his taxi.

I know you have invested countless hours researching and writing about the damage to the Pentagon. It is only natural that you have a subjective bias as to what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11.

I would like to make a request however for the purpose of this discussion, that you park your biases at the door,  so to speak. Please try to be as objective, open-minded and reasonable as possible when considering the evidence I am presenting.

I would like to break down the discussion into two parts:
1. The weight of the pole.
2. The length of pole.

We all know weight is subjective. However we must be realistic and reasonable when we consider the evidence available.

– Weight –

We came to an agreement that the smaller lower support arm was approximately 24 lbs [NOTE: Agreed-to in an earlier exchange].

Sharing the weight with the ‘stranger’ would have been 12 lbs each had the pole been symmetrical. It wasn’t however; there was a wider heavier end and a narrower lighter bent end. Lloyde made it very clear that he carried out the bent end. Being very conservative, the stranger would have been carrying around 14 lbs and Lloyde 10 lbs.

Lloyde was a tall, seemingly fit 69 year old man on 9/11.

Working men of his age and condition usually have no problems lifting:
– a three-month old baby
– a small microwave oven
– a vacuum cleaner
– a medium size cat or small dog
– a laundry basket filled with towels or jeans
– a medium size bowling ball
– 1.25 gallons of milk
– a large bag of sugar or flour
– a large watermelon
– a large filled garbage bag
– a sack of potatoes
– three two-liters of soda
– a holiday ham or turkey

All the items listed above are in the 10 lb range.

Also keep in mind that Lloyde would have been using two hands/arms
to lift out his end of the pole.

That means he was lifting ~5 lbs per arm.

In contrast, the long piece of the pole would have weighed in excess of 150 lbs.  Lloyd’s share of weight for this pole would have been more than 50 lbs, or at least 25 lbs per arm.

Let’s go to Lloyd’s “Survivors’ Fund Project Survivor Story” now and hear what he had to say in describing the pole:

“Glass was everywhere as he tried to stop the car. Another car stopped and the driver helped move the heavy pole off Lloyd’s car.”

“As they were moving the pole, they heard a big boom and turned to see an explosion. The light pole fell on Lloyd and he struggled to get up from underneath, wondering what had happened.”

And from at 5:45:

“He helped me get the pole out. The pole happened to be bent when, when we pulled the pole out, and the pole was bent. And the bent part took me down to the ground. I fell down on my back. But I held the pole up (showing width with his hands) “

So we have Lloyde describing the pole as heavy, so heavy that it took him down to the ground and he struggled to get from underneath it!

Now picture a three-month old baby, or a small dog, or three two-liters of soda being so heavy as to take Lloyde down to the ground and him struggling to get up from underneath it. You have to admit that would be almost comical.

In addition when Lloyde was describing the incident of the pole taking him down, he held out his hands, to show him holding the pole up. His hands were spaced at a distance of at least 6 inches (more than twice the diameter of the lower support arm).

– Length –

Without any prompting whatsoever, Lloyd calls out the “long piece” as the piece that hit his car.  Not only does he say he took the long piece out of the window, but solidifies this by describing its exact orientation.

Lloyd and Craig are both looking at a photo that has three of the pole pieces in front of his taxi; the long piece, the luminaire (lamp) and the small piece (lower support arm).
This is Government Exhibit P200027 01-455-A (attached).

Lloyde had three choices in the photo: long piece, small piece or lamp.

Craig: “Let’s look at this picture. And see there’s a piece here, a piece here and a piece here.”
Lloyde: “The lamp was knocked off the pole.”
Craig: “Here’s the lamp. And then, so which piece did you take out of the window?”
Lloyde: “The long piece. The part was from the ground, was up, from, off the, off the ground. It went all the way through the car until the back seat. Was still stickin’ out across the hood.”

First Lloyde unequivocally, with no prompting whatsoever, declares the long piece as the part that he took out of the window.

He could have said the small piece or the lamp, but he didn’t.
He said the long piece.

Next he described exactly how the long piece was oriented.

It started on the ground, then went up off the ground. Then it went all the way through the car until the back seat.

So on his own, he accounted for the entire length of the long piece.